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Game of Thrones: The Final Season Discussion Thread (AGAIN!!!)

Maka

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Oh and when Missandei was offered last words I got so hyped she was gonna say "Burn them all"

And she pretty much did, but in an even cooler way! That was a awesome scene.
 

sunshoes

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Really? I enjoyed Rhaegal's death. Daenerys for years has felt like an omnipotent Mary Sue where the few problems she can't solve are easily solved by having 3 fucking dragons backing her up. I enjoyed Viserion's death because it highlighted the true fragility of Dany's power. But especially after Drogon brushed off the scorpion last season Ceresi and company still seemed powerless to defeat her. In an instant that was crushed and Daenerys once again feels like the underdog against Ceresi's tyranny. Her armies are drastically diminished and she has lost 2 of her dragons, and I expect the third will follow.

On the topic of armies, did anyone else feel like the amount of casualties were greatly diminished from how it appeared in the previous episode? Half of the Unsullied, Dothraki, and northmen wiped out? Based on last week's episode it seemed like 99.9% of the Dothraki, and at least 80% of both the unsullied and northmen. Where were they all last episode? There were literally dozens of people left standing at the end of the battle, and suddenly there are 100k+ survivors? Did I miss something?

The book readers are AWFUL. They put GRRM on this giant pedestal and just say some terrible things about D&D. Which is funny, considering GRRM had 8 YEARS to release new books and there is still no release in sight for TWOW, much less ADOS. Like, the guy's story is so hard to wrap up that even he can't give it up a proper ending.
People diminish the amount GRRM contributes to the show too. He's still heavily involved and has gone on record repeatedly stating that they stay very true to his vision.
 

Tyber

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On the topic of armies, did anyone else feel like the amount of casualties were greatly diminished from how it appeared in the previous episode? Half of the Unsullied, Dothraki, and northmen wiped out? Based on last week's episode it seemed like 99.9% of the Dothraki, and at least 80% of both the unsullied and northmen. Where were they all last episode? There were literally dozens of people left standing at the end of the battle, and suddenly there are 100k+ survivors? Did I miss something?
Yeah I realized that and meant to comment here. I have no fucking idea where all those extra men came from since from, last episode it appeared to only be the main characters + a few others still standing. Now we have all these people coming out of no where ready to fight against Ceresi, but I guess we can find many reasons to complain about anything.
 

Patrick

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Rhaegal's death was such horsesh*t. Being shot by Euron out of nowhere after losing him through the battle wasn't necessary for the story arch. Like Maka, kinda wanted to see Jon/Rhaegal moments more.

The death of Missandei was over the top but needed. It gives Daenerys that spark that Cersei needs to die and that she shows no remorse for her and her people, and with her saying Dracarys, means that she's most likely gonna level Kings Landing completely if not most of it.

Overall, liked the episode. Too bad for Arya rejecting Gendry, and I liked the dialogue between Sansa and the Hound again. Can't wait for the next episodes! p.s. I WANT THE CLEGANEBOWL
 

Maka

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I'm not really fucking with that man. I've been staying positive most of the season but eh.

I can write out a hundred justifications for why Dany went Mad Queen, but at the end of the day I just didn't enjoy it. I didn't feel it was shown well enough. I think they have a good outline of a story but with the shortened season it just doesn't feel expanded on enough.

Oh well, I'm still looking forward to the final episode. I'm looking forward to the books being a lot more in depth. Really not sure what was going through the showrunners mind when they thought they could finish this in 15 episodes instead of 20, that would have really helped this out.
 

rkelly828

The people's choice
Legendary
Alright I’ve given it a bit of time, thought about it, and read the general opinions of the fan base (and boy was that a mistake). The first thing I want to get out of the way is that no, Game of Thrones has not become Dexter or Star Wars, more specifically the final season being compared to TLJ. As a huge Star Wars fan, NOTHING will ever be as bad and disappointing as that movie. As for the episode itself, the only way I think I can break this down is through pros and cons.

Pros:
- Hey what do you know, give Peter Dinklage good material to work with and he can act the hell out of it. That Jaime and Tyrion scene was great.

- Unlike most, I don’t feel like the mad queen arc was rushed at all. The one thing I agree with is that it could have been fleshed out more with more episodes. In my opinion, her completely losing it made sense. She lost her two closest allies, the feelings for her lover are no longer mutual, and she lost yet another dragon. I truly believe that her losing her mind wasn’t out of nowhere and it was always meant to happen.

- Music and Cinematography. But come on, do I really need to mention this?

-CleganeBowl lived up to the hype for me. It had some really cool shots and the shot of them both falling to death into a huge fire pit was just poetic symbolism.

And now for the bad...........

-Everything about Jaime. Listen I’ve read people try to justify his actions online, but it was just a dumb way for his character to go out. His character arc was just a complete circle. This one was more rushed than Dany becoming the mad queen in my opinion and it annoyed me a shit ton more.

- I’m not sure what the hell the real soldier count is. Sunshoes touched upon this last week, but I have no idea where Dany’s army is coming from. The Dothraki were completely wiped out and now apparently there are enough of them to rush Kings Landing? On top of this, I thought Golden Company had 20,000 soldiers? That sure as hell didn’t look like 20,000 soldiers, they were torn apart like paper.

- Euron Greyjoy. Thank god his arc is done before the finale, he’s just a very poorly written character.

- Cersei in general this season. Her character was definitely one who was hurt the most by the episode count being cut. Even in this episode, she kind of just sat there and was like welp guess I’ll die. I’m conflicted whether or not I liked how she finally broke down and saying she didn’t want to die. It’s one of those scenarios where you don’t realize something until it’s too late. Like it was cool seeing her plan fail epically when she tried to put innocent civilians in the way and Dany just burned them all down. But...I don’t know something about it just doesn’t sit right with me. She needed more of a presence this season.

With one episode left and yet another outcry from the fandom, I know one thing is for sure about the series finale. Nothing will give them satisfaction. No matter what they do, no matter how perfectly they end it, the fans will shit all over it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but seeing everyone complain more and more and more about the littlest of things is just infuriating to me. It makes me ashamed to be part of such a toxic community. In just one season, GOT fans have easily become the most toxic fan base I’ve ever been a part of. It’s a real shame, because I truly think despite this being one of my least favorite seasons that the episodes are still very high quality as I’ve mentioned before.
 

Maka

hey
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The one thing I agree with is that it could have been fleshed out more with more episodes.
Yeah. I've seen several causal watchers just not get the snap. Sure she executed Varys and looked rough for wear, but killing thousands of civilians is such a huge jump. Only 6 episodes man, what were they thinking.

- Euron Greyjoy. Thank god his arc is done before the finale, he’s just a very poorly written character.
I'll always be bitter about show Euron. Book Euron is probably the most terrifying character in the books. He's sailed through Valaryia and lived, and has a bunch of crazy supernatural shit going on. Spoilers from the Damphair TWOW chapter that GRRM shared
HE HAS A SUIT OF FUCKING VALARYIAN STEEL AND IS LAUNCHING AN ATTACK ON OLD TOWN. IIRC he can also summon krakens and has a horn that binds dragons to him.

Show Euron is just a wacky uncle who talks about his dick. Like they might as well rename him because it's hardly like Euron at all.

-Everything about Jaime. Listen I’ve read people try to justify his actions online, but it was just a dumb way for his character to go out. His character arc was just a complete circle. This one was more rushed than Dany becoming the mad queen in my opinion and it annoyed me a shit ton more.
RIP to the best character in Game of Thrones and one of the best in fiction. I'm not that fond of his death either, but I have to admit that it was terrifying. Cersei breaking down and saying she didn't want to die like this actually made me feel for her. Even after her powerful Cersei had gotten, she felt like an ant compared to Dany in that moment, completely at her mercy. Like a lot in the show, it's an amazingly acted and directed scene. Just not written that well.

With one episode left and yet another outcry from the fandom, I know one thing is for sure about the series finale. Nothing will give them satisfaction. No matter what they do, no matter how perfectly they end it, the fans will shit all over it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but seeing everyone complain more and more and more about the littlest of things is just infuriating to me. It makes me ashamed to be part of such a toxic community. In just one season, GOT fans have easily become the most toxic fan base I’ve ever been a part of. It’s a real shame, because I truly think despite this being one of my least favorite seasons that the episodes are still very high quality as I’ve mentioned before.
That starbucks cup stuff got me. Everyone just completely losing there shit over something they forgot to edit.
 

sunshoes

Sorry but no.
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- I’m not sure what the hell the real soldier count is. Sunshoes touched upon this last week, but I have no idea where Dany’s army is coming from. The Dothraki were completely wiped out and now apparently there are enough of them to rush Kings Landing? On top of this, I thought Golden Company had 20,000 soldiers? That sure as hell didn’t look like 20,000 soldiers, they were torn apart like paper.
While Dany's army has some massive inconsistencies I think the Golden Company count seemed about right. There was 1 aerial shot where we could see how far spread out along the wall they really were and their formation was a couple thousand wide and 5 rows deep I believe. For context 20,000 people is AT&T Stadium at 25% capacity.


That starbucks cup stuff got me. Everyone just completely losing there shit over something they forgot to edit.
I don't think people realize how common errors like this are. Little missed things in editing. Literally happens constantly without ever realizing until it's pointed out.
Game of Thrones - Battle of the Bastards: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4283088/goofs/
Breaking Bad - Ozymandias: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2301451/goofs
The Wire - The Detail: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0749448/goofs
The Sopranos - College: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705236/goofs

So weird how no one was saying "Vince Gilligan doesn't care anymore" because you can clearly see a cameraman during 1 shot during Breaking Bad's best episode. What's obnoxious is there are actual things to complain about, but instead people are just jumping onto the circlejerk and pretending the whole thing is dogshit. It's really funny being on social media right when the episode ends because people are cautiously tiptoeing, waiting to see what they should complain about this week. Why watch the show at that point? Don't get me wrong, I have watched terrible shows before just to see how they end but people are villainizing D&D like they just destroyed their childhood. So many cries of "they didn't know what to do when the book material ended" from people who don't even realize that for YEARS the books have just been broad strokes and Game of Thrones has been pretty significantly different from its source material.
 

sunshoes

Sorry but no.
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Okay so I also had to definitely think about how I felt about certain parts of the episode.

Daenerys
Yikes.

Gonna start with the bad. So obviously she's the biggest victim of the 6-episode season time crunch. Only a few episodes ago she was happy to sacrifice everything to defend the realms of men from the army of the dead. And even beyond that she acknowledged that she's not in Westeros to be Queen of the Ashes. She repeatedly goes on about freeing the people from tyranny. We've seen that Daenerys has a pretty damn good eye from up on Drogon, and she very much knew what she was doing and who she was killing. She knew that she could just march on the Red Keep and take Ceresi with few other casualties once they surrendered. Even if they didn't, she knew she could raze just the Red Keep. Hell, their whole moral conflict was over the fact that there were innocent civilians inside the Red Keep, and Dany just slaughtered as many as she could find outside of instead. I understand that she 'snapped' out of fury over Missandei, Jorah, and Rhaegal's deaths, and feeling betrayed by everyone around her. I understand that she senses that everyone is afraid of her and decides she has to rule through fear, no matter how rushed that plot line was. But it was just so inconsistent with her character. It feels terrible right now to be so invested in her for so long.

But there was some good. Her early scenes, at least the ones with enough lighting to actually see, heavily mirrored both Stannis brooding on Dragonstone after his defeat at the Battle of the Blackwater, and Viscerys in the final episodes, looking frail and broken. She feels isolated from everyone around her and it shows. She wasn't welcomed in Qarth, she wasn't welcomed in Astapor, she wasn't welcomed in Yunkai, she wasn't welcomed in Meereen. And yet when she came to Westeros she immediately made allies in Dorne, the Reach, the Iron Islands, and the North. She is right that she is not beloved like Jon Snow is, but she has many enemy-of-my-enemy allies, and she did not become beloved in Essos until AFTER she freed the people from tyranny but her own haste to claim what she believes to be her birthright has clouded her judgement.

@Maka can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Daenerys only like 15 in the books? I've said this since around season 5 but lot of her actions would make more sense if she was a reckless, immature teenager rather than such an emotionally unstable adult.

Arya
Definitely the highlight of the episode. Arya could have gone with the Hound, and she would have killed Ceresi. She has spent years becoming the embodiment of death but today, amongst all of the death surrounding her, she chose life. It was a pretty great step for her character. Her running through King's Landing in fear was a big throwback to Season 1 too, when she was fleeing from the Sept of Baelor after Ned's execution.

To be perfectly honest I thought she was going to die during the raid, and Jon would find her body on the ground, and that would be his tipping point.

The only thing I thought was kinda weird was the imagery at the end. They had Arya mount the pale horse at the end which was obvious biblical imagery of Death in Revelations:
When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Yet it seemed a bit out of place after watching Arya turn against Death for an hour. She spent her time saving lives, battling against death instead of harnessing herself. Maybe I missed what they were going for but it seems like kind of a thematic fail to NOW have her go out embodying Death by mounting the pale horse.

Some people think Arya will kill Dany but I strongly disagree. I don't think they will give her both of the major kills this season (since the Cersei kill was claimed by a rock) and it would go against her entire character arc this episode.

Cleganebowl
I'm glad they didn't make it too cheesy. Qyburn was a character that I really wondered what his undoing would be but it's fitting that he was killed so nonchalantly by his own creation, a la Frankenstein's Monster. The Mountain was truly horrifying, especially when even the dagger to the brain wouldn't stop him. I know there's a lot of magic and stuff in the books but Ser Gregor is one of the most truly horrifying fantasy spectacles in the show.

I really expected the Hound to use fire in some way to take down his brother but again, maybe that would have been too cheesy. Was a glorious death and ridding the world of the Mountain let the Hound go out doing a good thing.

Grey Worm
Damn. What an upsetting turn for a character who has always remained so likable. It makes sense; his love for Missandei and loyalty to Daenerys are his most defining characteristics but you'd think that someone with a strong sense of duty who came from nothing wouldn't revel in fighting so dishonourably. I guess if his Queen is a murderer he's fine with doing it himself, too. Strange though that Dany doesn't seem to be leaning on him at all when he's the only one remaining truly loyal to her.

Jon
Obviously he can no longer support his Queen, who is so willing to murder innocent civilians for no reason. He's understandably upset but I'm honestly not sure how he's going to go about dealing with it. His loyalty to Daenerys has definitely become antithetical to his usual character since if there's one thing Jon Snow is it's honourable to a fault. And yet he has chosen to taken all of the burden off his own shoulders by saying that whatever his Queen wants is right. I've forgiven a lot of this as thinking with his heart and/or penis but he's at a pretty stark (pun intended) crossroads here. He can choose to do the right thing or he can choose to do his duty. Remember that Ned Stark supported Robert's Rebellion, and yet still sentenced Jaime guilty of regicide. Jon very much carries Ned's code of honour and it will be interesting to see what he does with that. I heard 1 person joke that he will follow in Ned's footsteps and literally just approach the throne and tell Dany she's guilty and will be executed. It would be in character for him but would obviously be a very stupid way for him to die.

Heartbreaking that he was watching Northern soldiers join in though. Even if he doesn't want the Iron Throne the Northern soldiers are still his people.

Jaime
Definitely gonna disagree with everyone saying Jaime's character arc went out the window. The truth is Jaime is a flawed human being. He never stopped loving Cersei. I forget who said it but I remember a character said before that Jaime is addicted to Cersei and that rings true. I can tell you from first hand experience that Jaime did what every addict does: he backslid. He knew he shouldn't, he knew she was bad for him, but he couldn't help himself. Jaime going back to be with the one thing he believes he needs more than anything in the world is very in-character.

The real bummer though, is if Brienne doesn't have any more character development. What a depressing end for her if that's it.



I felt like I had more to say than this but I can't really think of anything else at the moment. Good fucking riddance to Euron. I'm gonna restate what I have said since the very beginning though: no one will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.
 

rkelly828

The people's choice
Legendary
Jaime
Definitely gonna disagree with everyone saying Jaime's character arc went out the window. The truth is Jaime is a flawed human being. He never stopped loving Cersei. I forget who said it but I remember a character said before that Jaime is addicted to Cersei and that rings true. I can tell you from first hand experience that Jaime did what every addict does: he backslid. He knew he shouldn't, he knew she was bad for him, but he couldn't help himself. Jaime going back to be with the one thing he believes he needs more than anything in the world is very in-character.

The real bummer though, is if Brienne doesn't have any more character development. What a depressing end for her if that's it.
I agree with all your points, but this one I still can't get behind. I read similar points online and its just something I don't agree with. I understand he still loves her and its like a drug, but the idea of him going in a complete circle in regards to his character arc is just unfulfilling for me. I would've much rather him realize that despite his love for her, she is the reason he was always hateful and the reason he made the poor decisions he made. Killing her before the roof caved in on him would've been much more satisfying in my eyes, as he has finally realized all the terrible things he has done just for her. Also not to mention how much he fucked over Brienne and her story. To each their own I guess, this just didn't make sense to me.
 
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Tyber

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I agree with all your points, but this one I still can't get behind. I read similar points online and its just something I don't agree with. I understand he still loves her and its like a drug, but the idea of his character going in a complete circle in regards to his character arc is just unfulfilling for me. I would've much rather him realize that despite his love for her, she is the reason he was always hateful and the reason he made the poor decisions he made. Killing her before the roof caved in on him would've been much more satisfying in my eyes, as he has finally realized all the terrible things he has done just for her. Also not to mention how much he fucked over Brienne and her story. To each their own I guess, this just didn't make sense to me.
Also to add onto this I was told as school by someone that a witch in the 2nd season that her brother will kill her yet as we see, she got fucking stomped by the roof
 

sunshoes

Sorry but no.
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Also to add onto this I was told as school by someone that a witch in the 2nd season that her brother will kill her yet as we see, she got fucking stomped by the roof
And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar (High Valerian for "little brother") shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

She die with Jaime's hands around her throat, embracing her. The prophecy was subverted in a few ways:
  1. Jaime being her younger brother. Even though they are twins he is in fact her younger brother since she was born first.
  2. Her neck was not wrung. She was not strangled to death by her brother. He wrapped his arms around her neck as they held each others.
  3. The tears line can be interpreted a few ways. She died beneath King's Landing where the tears of tens of thousands of people being slaughtered fell. It was also destroyed by the tears of Daenerys and Drogon, purging the city in their twisted vengeful sorrow.
Not trusting prophecies is also a long-running theme within the Game of Thrones universe. The Dothraki prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World seems to be heavily subverted in this episode as well, as the great Mare who united all of the Dothraki hordes to conquer the world indeed did so by razing King's Landing and becoming one of the world's most villainous people in the process. Stannis being subverted as the Prince who was Promised is probably the most obvious case within the show though.

Also for what it's worth the valonquar prophecy is only in the books and didn't appear in the show. The flashback with Maggy the Witch only talked about how Cersei's children will have crowns of gold, will die before her, and she will not bare the King's children.
 

Patrick

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And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar (High Valerian for "little brother") shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

She die with Jaime's hands around her throat, embracing her. The prophecy was subverted in a few ways:
  1. Jaime being her younger brother. Even though they are twins he is in fact her younger brother since she was born first.
  2. Her neck was not wrung. She was not strangled to death by her brother. He wrapped his arms around her neck as they held each others.
  3. The tears line can be interpreted a few ways. She died beneath King's Landing where the tears of tens of thousands of people being slaughtered fell. It was also destroyed by the tears of Daenerys and Drogon, purging the city in their twisted vengeful sorrow.
Not trusting prophecies is also a long-running theme within the Game of Thrones universe. The Dothraki prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World seems to be heavily subverted in this episode as well, as the great Mare who united all of the Dothraki hordes to conquer the world indeed did so by razing King's Landing and becoming one of the world's most villainous people in the process. Stannis being subverted as the Prince who was Promised is probably the most obvious case within the show though.

Also for what it's worth the valonquar prophecy is only in the books and didn't appear in the show. The flashback with Maggy the Witch only talked about how Cersei's children will have crowns of gold, will die before her, and she will not bare the King's children.
Everything said here I agree with.
 

rkelly828

The people's choice
Legendary
Tonight one of, if not the best TV show of all time comes to an end. No matter what your opinion of this season or the most recent seasons is, keep in mind we may never see a show quite like it again.
 
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